RYANAIR may lose its license to fly in Spain

Oh dear to that ! i can only find this airline that goes to Eastmidlands !!

My god what are the Spanish like, talking about cutting their own throats to get some money out of Ryanair. They want to seriously think about what they are doing, because financially it would be a disaster for Spain to lose Ryanair.

I know most if us moan about Ryanair but lets be honest, if you compare there prices with the other airlines that fly to UK, most of the time they are far cheaper.
When looking to book recently, monarch and Bmi were almost double the price.

Depends what you want Cheap flights or Safe flights?

Ryanair is notorious among the flying public for floating such ideas as standing-room only flights, or having to pay to use the toilet. It is also one of the of the world's top airlines because it offers excellent prices for most of its routes. This is achieved through strict cost-cutting measures, one of which has recently lead to the airline fueling policy. The three flights diverted from Madrid Barajas to Valencia because of an electric storm is the tip of the ice berg as whilst one was queuing to land it had to send out a 'mayday' message that allowed it to be pushed to the front for a priority touch down - the other two flights did the same shortly afterwards. The reason for the emergency was given as that the planes did not have a drop more fuel to make it safely to the ground. A spokesperson for Ryan air>>>explained that only the absolute minimum of fuel required to cover each journey is placed in the tank - not a drop more. In other words, there is no room for emergencies such as these!!!!

How, if this is true, could Spain not act? what happens when one falls out of the Sky????

Don't Believe Everything You Read in the press

janga wrote: Don't Believe Everything You Read in the press

Really?

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I fly with Ryanair every month and I haven't any complaints about them. They are cheap and curteous and nearly every time, land on time or even earlier. They have an excellent safety record and if there was an electrical storm at the allocated airport, I for one would feel safer landing at a different airport. I was on a flight once where we were about to land and the plane had to climb steeply and come around again because of wind sheer. The pilot was excellent and we landed safely. So yes it might be cattle class but I have nothing but praise for Ryanair.

Ryanair must be laughing all the way to the bank. No publicity is bad publicity. Their name is on everyones lips and where do you think most people will look for their cheap flight.....

I fly regularly and can not find cheaper than ryanair. Yes its a cheap airline, but when only flying for a short flight what more than a seat and arriving on time and safely do you need.
Michael O´Leary is not a popular person but we are flying with Ryanair and not him, but he is very successful.
I do think Spain should encourage him in these dire times and not make life more difficult.

Spain not doing much to encourage tourism, as usual.

The absolute minimum amount of fuel for any flight is worked out based on a set formula based on weight, distance travelled, fuel needed to reach alternative airfield, etc which factors in a contingency and then extra is added on again to meet European guidelines. No commercial planes are going to fall out of the sky due to a lack of fuel. The 3 planes were held in a pattern for 50, 68 and 69 minutes over Valencia after having to fly there in the first place. So were in the air significantly longer than the set journey time. The pilots placed maydays only when they were approaching having 30 minutes of fuel left. Landings were completely standard and there was no danger.

They may carry less fuel than some other airlines but they are unlikely to be breaching any regulations and certainly wouldn't put flights at risk.

There is always a problem with the press and the reporting of aviation "incidents". Tends to be a lot of over dramatisation and commenting by journalists who don't understand what they are talking about...

janga wrote:Spain not doing much to encourage tourism, as usual.

On the day in question there where 18 planes diverted, some from much much further afield yet all three Ryanair planes declared an emergency due to a lack of fuel, which gave them a priority path into the airport. Ordinarily, the aircraft would join a queue of others waiting to land, following their turn in succession this didn't happen and other planes who had travelled for longer and further where put in a pattern over the airport in order to facilitate Ryanair's lack of foresight, particularly as they where aware of the possibility of severe weather prior to take off. I don't think Spain is as concerned about tourism as it is about the potential safety implications of this event!!!

Google some of the Aviation and pilots forums you'll be agast at what cost cutting measures Ryanair insists its pilots take.

I think perhaps there is a point being missed here. Like I said the planes will not have been breaching any regulations regarding fuel being carried. They will have had at least minimum required levels based on the regs and Boeing guidelines. This may be less than other airlines but that is not a crime.

Being diverted will have taken them closer to limits than other companies' aircraft but not to danger levels. They would however, have 3 planes in the wrong place with crews in the wrong place and in danger of running out of hours. Calling a mayday got them on the ground asap. It is highly unlikely the authorities will be able to get them on the basis of the fuel as they will have been operating on legal levels so they will not be punishable for anything....but managed to cut their potential delays.

I am not defending Ryanair but they are way cleverer than most people realise and will operate close to the edge of what they can get away with...but not in terms of safety.

From\the ryanair web site>
Due to severe thunderstorms over Madrid on Thursday (26 July) Spanish air traffic control instructed a number of inbound aircraft (including 3 Ryanair aircraft) to divert to and hold over Valencia Airport. Having held over Valencia for 50 mins, 68 mins and 69 mins after their scheduled landing time in Madrid, Ryanair’s 3 aircraft (following standard industry safety procedures) requested air traffic control permission to land immediately as they reached their reserve fuel minimums, which allow each aircraft to operate for an additional 30 minutes (approx 300 miles) of flying.

All 3 aircraft landed normally with reserve fuel levels (of approx 30 mins or 300 miles of flying) remaining.

So then minimum fuel is always safe because the regulations says so, what if every plane flying to Madrid on that day had only fuelled minimum legal required fuel, would the situation still be safe???

Either there was an imminent danger hence the Mayday's or there was not. Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

Still It remains that the Spanish want to know why only the Ryanair planes called Mayday---none of the other circling planes did, apparently they have done the Math and all the planes when diverted should have had sufficient fuel to get to Madrid, hold in an already known pattern and still have the legal 30mins left. THIS IS WHAT the problem is, as if there had been any suggestion of a fuel problem the planes would have been sent to any one of the other 7 closer airports!!!!

If you would read what I said...they called mayday to get the planes on the ground asap to cut the already disruptive delay and reduce the costs associated with that..edge of what they can get away with from a rules point of view but there was no danger. However, it will be difficult for the authorities to call them for it because they were operating within legal fuel limits..but had the fact that fuel was getting low within those limits to justify the call. Clever, not exactly moral but not illegal.

All planes fuel to allow diversion to 2 alternates (for commercial) therefore if every plane had found the need to divert that is what they would have done without incident. How do you think they dealt with landing all the air traffic on 9/11 and during the Icelandic ash cloud?

I'll say it again..no safety issue, just Ryanair operating on the edge as usual.

So to recap, based on the fact that Ryanair had multiple fuel emergencies, while other aircraft that were subject to the same conditions (weather, diversion, holding) did not have a similar spate of fuel emergencies, I think it's reasonable to question whether a significant causal factor in this incident may have been that Ryanair pilots routinely carry less fuel than other airline's pilots (and before you say it, while still complying with regulations).

It is therefore also reasonable to question if what happened may have been driven by Ryanair's apparent policy of warning pilots on the economic impact of carrying more fuel than is absolutely necessary??

Of course there's a safety issue, it was only because the other planes HAD more fuel that the Ryanair flights could effectively jump the landing que, if this hadn't been the case what would have happened???????

They weren't the only airline with issues that day. Others did also including a KLM coming into Madrid approach with a hell of a lot less fuel than any of the Ryanairs and that was without the divert...but not calling it which is worse.

It was a tactical move to call the maydays, they could all have stayed in the air for longer quite easily.

If a pilot wants to carry more fuel then they can. There is pressure on them by the base captain to keep it tight but the flying captain makes the final calculations.

KLM aren't being investigated are they?

So it remains that 3 Ryanair aircraft, on a night of forcast storms, didn't load enough fuel. and that there is a culture of fear in Ryanair regarding loading fuel beyond flight plan + 300kg which does not exist in other airlines. Other airlines didn't run short on the night in question.

Therefore we are left with 2 possibilities???


The most obvious areas for inquiry will be.

Whether the airline's pilots correctly factored in possible delays and diversions due to adverse weather conditions forecast for Madrid Airport on the day.

or

Stuck rigidly to Ryanair's recommended fuel 'efficency' policy of only allowing the minimum amount of extra fuel on its aircraft remaining technically within the law, knowing they would be facilitated with a priority landing if they had to declare a fuel emergency.

If either scenario is proven then Ryanair may well face some form of punishment.

They did load enough fuel...full journey, divert 60+ minutes holding and enough for another 30 mins or so. None of them were going to fall out of the sky.

KLM should be investigated but likely won't be. The authorities love to go for Ryanair at every opportunity. Again, I am not defending them. It is just fact.

Of course the pilots factored everything in. They aren't suicidal maniacs in general.

Flight planning is vitally important for obvious reasons. I know this as I have had to do them on countless ocassions myself. You don't cut corners where safety is concerned.

I know anything I say will be disregarded by your good self so I am now bored and going to bed. My 2 month old wants her nappy changing so nighty night.

It's absolutely lawful to take minimum fuel however what does it say about the ability to anticipate? what does it really say about Ryanair's "situational awareness".
Once again, the question is more how they manage their fuel, its well known, I beleive by anybody who flies in Europe and within such an extensive Spanish network you should account for all eventualities especially if landing at MAD.

I still find strange that it's a "non-event" to declare Mayday. A mayday surely means "I was not able to foresee what's coming, I need help and can't deal with the normal procedures and course of actions with the fuel I've left".So to say, I've not been able to either uplift the amount of fuel I needed or to take the appropriate decisions relevant to the amount of fuel I uplifted. How come the Ryanair crew were in a more difficult situation than anybody else that night?

It would seem the first plane diverted, which took an additional 26mins flying time then held for 69 minutes which seems an awfully short time before a mayday situation. All there planes where offered Barcelona, Tarragona or Alicante as alternates yet choose Valencia where surprise surprise Ryanair have a substantial interest.

Anyway, without blaming regulations or captains themselves...Ryanair will still have to explain how they don't manage to anticipate and or plan properly as much as the other airlines did.

Surely even if they admit to manipulating or bending the rules this would equally be penalised?

If the 3 Ryanair flights had enough fuel to fly from Madrid to Valencia, and then 'stack' for nearly an hour, they must have been carrying well over a ton of fuel above the minimum - and they still didn't touch down dry!

Two Virgin Atlantic passenger jets issued emergency alerts on the same day this year because they were running out of fuel.

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There have been at least 28 cases of UK passenger airlines declaring low-fuel emergencies in the last two years while flying to airports in Britain, the Civil Aviation Authority has revealed.
Three were mayday calls made in the first five months of this year. Destinations included Heathrow,
Birmingham, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Manchester and Nottingham.

looks like its a regular occurrence then ?